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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 4, 2010 21:17:14 GMT
And my quote-tags are beautiful. (there's no problem there, honestly. I'm quoting you quoting me.) I hate to agree with him but your quote tags are clearly fubar in this post - or at least they are in the last bit where you're discussing Pedro.
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Post by Gabby on Sept 4, 2010 21:23:17 GMT
And my quote-tags are beautiful. (there's no problem there, honestly. I'm quoting you quoting me.) I hate to agree with him but your quote tags are clearly fubar in this post - or at least they are in the last bit where you're discussing Pedro. Oh yeah, but that's unimportant. He's clearly just afraid to answer me and stalling. *brushes off shoulders*
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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 4, 2010 21:29:23 GMT
When you get a moment, you should have a butchers at Candide. I'm not sure how well translated it is, mind, but it's a fun little thing, and about a 100-odd pages. I've added Candide, Selected writings by Montesquieu and selected writings by misc Enlightenment philosophers to my Amazon Wish List, but given the size of both my `to read' pile and the length of the wish list I can't promise to get to them soon, if ever!
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Post by Gabby on Sept 4, 2010 21:47:50 GMT
When you get a moment, you should have a butchers at Candide. I'm not sure how well translated it is, mind, but it's a fun little thing, and about a 100-odd pages. I've added Candide, Selected writings by Montesquieu and selected writings by misc Enlightenment philosophers to my Amazon Wish List, but given the size of both my `to read' pile and the length of the wish list I can't promise to get to them soon, if ever! Oooh, I read one of Montesquieu's ess- *remembers he actually read two, the second of which was actually a set text and shrugs*-ays two years ago. Gimme a sec... This is all I can find - no official translations. www.litterales.com/texte--61-_-De%20l_esclavage%20des%20Negres%20%28Livre%20XV,%20cha.html If I had a scanner, I'd scan my old copy, but it's in French anyway. In any case, it's among my favourite things from that year. *I'll let you choose a translator* The other text was quite an elitist rant on education. Right up our friends' street. But yah. I'm worried I'll forget how to speak French once I leave, and I won't ever be able to read Les Misérables.
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Revenant
Ally
Alan Corvus - Axes High
? Je Reviendrai ?
Posts: 49
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Post by Revenant on Sept 5, 2010 7:52:44 GMT
a den of scum and villiany? They've really relaxed the entry standards. You don't even need a criminal record to get in any more!
I remember agreeing to disagree quite often, perhaps a difference in viewpoints, but yes, I guess you could call it an amicable relationship. I've been quiet, haven't played the game in around 9 months or so. Currently stalking the DHPD forums, but that's about it. Good to see your face, at any rate. @ Purple Cat: Apologies for not quoting your entire posts, but I would prefer to reply to the gestalt rather than dissect your posts line by line. Besides, "Brevity is… wit." Question: Are you reading merely the front page, or did you delve into the Policies and Philosophies sections? Those are where you will find most of the meat. ⁂Aye. I consider the "Scientific Method" to be an essentially refined and more practical version of the original philosophic attitude. Ideas must be tested, examined, and refined by praxis. ⁂I was curious, so I dug through my records and found the records of the incident. It was Miss Giedi who dispatched you, not myself, although it was a combined effort. To be honest, I was somewhat disappointed not to see records of the incident from your people, but I assumed this to be part of a campaign of discouragement and thought no more of it. I'm afraid you're giving me no more reason to kill you, here; as you say, you've seen your fair share of death, and my attentions can be better directed towards those who have not as yet. 'Tis no simple task I have before me, you know.
I suppose the only way my questions will be answered is if I quote some old dead dudes. So here goes. Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut Do the Philosophe Knights resent the ignorant of Malton because their higher educations they worked for don't necessarily allow them to lead better lives here? You assume much. We require no evidence of high education, or even overmuch learning; we only require that the candidate be willing to learn. A good attitude goes a long way, and we would be poor teachers indeed if we rejected students for being unlearned. Here's a piece of advice for you: Wear your learning like your watch, in a private pocket, and do not pull it out and strike it merely to show that you have one. If you are asked what time it is, tell it, but do not proclaim it hourly and unasked, like the watchman. -Earl of Chesterfield "Advice unasked is advice ignored." To address the hypothetical situation literally: personally, I find that people tend to ask me if I have the time, to which I tend to reply, "Yes," and proceed on my way. I suppose you could say that my purpose is to make people question. "The only cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." —Dorothy Parker @ Gabby: I'm afraid I've yet to read Candide, either. Shameful, I know. As I said, my background is not in the arts – it's more that I am endlessly fascinated by any amount of things, ideas being paramount. "You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea." —Myrlie Evers
I would like to close with a quotation currently being sported by one of out most recently graduated Knights… Post Script: Missed these before…In the absence of any means of production expropriate... may as well just stick with the guys with cool hats. Finally, something we can wholeheartedly agree on! Agreed on that quote. Not much use killing doodz then, is it? On the contrary, I find it tends to get their attention most efficaciously. ;D Besides, as Brad said earlier, it's hardly permanent— in this city, at this time. Were the situation otherwise, well…
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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 5, 2010 11:58:24 GMT
Re: Systemic bias within the Philosophe Knights
I've read more than the Philosophe Knight's front page but I'll admit I haven't systematically explored their whole wiki space. I have clicked on all the links that, at first glance at least, would seem to lead to places that discuss their rationale.
I think we're getting a little side-tracked though. Any self-selecting group is likely to reach a homogeneity of views on certain subjects (for instance the correctness of the group's basic aims and the general value of the group as a whole) even if they may disagree violently on other subjects including the correct conduct of the group's affairs and the correct procedure for pursuing it's aims. For instance, I don't think there is anyone within the DHPD who disagrees with the fundamental idea that some kind of legislative structure is of benefit to Malton and a necessary check on our PKing activities even if we disagree on how the group should be run, what that legislative structure should be and how rigidly it should be followed and enforced.
Re: Scientific Method
I read a book recently on the emergence of Science in the Renaissance which fascinated me in the way the renaissance philosophers struggled to reconcile the, to them, apparently opposed processes of learning through observation and learning through theoretical deduction. It was a major philosophic breakthrough in understanding how to combine those processes and, I guess, in that sense all of science is an application of that particular philosophic breakthrough.
That said, the book also irritated me a little in that it seemed to conflate "being wrong" with "believing in magic".
Re: Getting PK'd
I think we declared the Hunting Club a Terrorist group shortly thereafter. One of the purposes of such a status is an attempt to avoid PKers using the DHPD Most Wanted list as some kind of point scoring exercise. There comes a point when little purpose is served, from out point of view, in making an issue out of individual offences.
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Revenant
Ally
Alan Corvus - Axes High
? Je Reviendrai ?
Posts: 49
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Post by Revenant on Sept 6, 2010 6:53:44 GMT
I do everything I can to cultivate useful differences of opinion, but, yes, some coherence is perforce necessary to retain a group identity. "Discrimination" has only recently become a dirty word; no slight against Comrade Gabby, but "political correctness" is not a philosophy to which I wish to subscribe. ("Social Marxism" is an alternate term that I have heard which might arguably be more correct.) ⁂“Any sufficiently advanced technology…”, as Arthur C. Clarke said…. ⁂I accept your designation as a mark of praise. “One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter”, after all. We are fighting to free people from the fear of death.
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Post by Gabby on Sept 6, 2010 10:48:42 GMT
I do everything I can to cultivate useful differences of opinion, but, yes, some coherence is perforce necessary to retain a group identity. "Discrimination" has only recently become a dirty word; no slight against Comrade Gabby, but "political correctness" is not a philosophy to which I wish to subscribe. ("Social Marxism" is an alternate term that I have heard which might arguably be more correct.) Hey, the desire to not be a tosser does not spring from the desire not to be a capitalist. It springs from having a soul. Well, debatable.
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Post by Surfcop on Sept 6, 2010 17:05:16 GMT
We are fighting to free people from the fear of death. All we are is dust in the wind, dude.
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Revenant
Ally
Alan Corvus - Axes High
? Je Reviendrai ?
Posts: 49
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Post by Revenant on Sept 7, 2010 2:49:24 GMT
Hey, the desire to not be a tosser does not spring from the desire not to be a capitalist. It springs from having a soul. Courtesy is one thing. The phrase "political correctness" comes out of Soviet Russia (which was arguably not a "true" communist state, nor would most idealistic proponents of communism say that any implementation thus far has been, human nature being what it is… but that is another discussion), and refers to conforming to the prevailing political ideology on pain of being "re-educated". Orwellian, indeed. The problem as I see it with restricting speech is that thought is also restricted. We must be free to think the unthinkable, if only so as to prevent it from coming to pass. “If free speech is outlawed, only outlaws will be able to speak freely.” Likewise for thought. ⁂Also: Those who talk about souls tend to state that all human beings possess them. Some human beings do not desire not to be “tossers”. So, unless you're going to argue the “springs from”… Well, yes; we are debating it, are we not? @ Surfcop: I had to go listen to that song. Now I need to listen to it again. (And again, and again…) I hope you are happy! ;D Of course, to that statement I would say… not yet. Maybe not ever – who knows? This city at this time is at a new and exciting stage of human development. So long as the spirit is willing, the flesh is willing also. “Death” as it was can no longer be said to truly exist. We must discard the old ingrown fears and habits which are no longer useful and embrace the potential on offer. Good song, though. Are we not all ultimately star dust? And will we not, in the end, either return to stars or be spread out so infinitely that we can no longer be said in truth to exist? I do not know. But I want to find out. Always assuming, of course, that the city of Malton is not in fact either in truth Hell or Purgatory.
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Post by Gabby on Sept 7, 2010 11:07:03 GMT
Hey, the desire to not be a tosser does not spring from the desire not to be a capitalist. It springs from having a soul. Courtesy is one thing. The phrase "political correctness" comes out of Soviet Russia , and refers to conforming to the prevailing political ideology on pain of being "re-educated". Orwellian, indeed. Ah, but language is fluid. Nowadays, it's mostly used by bigots that complain they can't call people Pakis and Negros anymore. However, your comments indicate a degree of political unreliability. Please report to processing station 105 for political re-education. I don't think political correctness as it understood today is a legal matter. Only dipstick nations like the UK ban hate speech. It's just a social pressure, which is perfectly OK. If bigots get criticised for calling homosexuals faggots, then they will moderate their language, if not their views. The second could then bring about the first, with any luck, and if it doesn't, at least we don't have to listen to their bile. [QUOTE Also: Those who talk about souls tend to state that all human beings possess them. Some human beings do not desire not to be “tossers”. So, unless you're going to argue the “springs from”… [/QUOTE] I use soul in a far less metaphysical sense, just to mean some sense of decency. If someones wants to be a tosser, I take it as a given they are one. Indeed. The quote is often used as a counter-point to moral absolutists, but it suggests a massive amount of relativity, which is dangerous. In fact, I don't think it holds true. A freedom fighter does not attack civilian targets. No freedom worth having comes from attacking civilians, not to mention the tactical idiocy of attacking those you seek to liberate, and those who could support you.
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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 7, 2010 11:10:56 GMT
In fact, I don't think it holds true. A freedom fighter does not attack civilian targets. No freedom worth having comes from attacking civilians, not to mention the tactical idiocy of attacking those you seek to liberate, and those who could support you. Well that depends on the civilian and the extent to which they are complicit in the military-industrial complex doesn't it? At some level "I'm not carrying a gun, so ner!" isn't actually an excuse...
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Post by Gabby on Sept 7, 2010 11:24:23 GMT
In fact, I don't think it holds true. A freedom fighter does not attack civilian targets. No freedom worth having comes from attacking civilians, not to mention the tactical idiocy of attacking those you seek to liberate, and those who could support you. Well that depends on the civilian and the extent to which they are complicit in the military-industrial complex doesn't it? At some level "I'm not carrying a gun, so ner!" isn't actually an excuse... Naturally. And I wouldn't entirely rule politicians and other elements of the state out of being targeted. Nor targeted attacks on elites, but it's a slippery slope. If you can blow up a tank, why not unarmed army recruits on their way to register for voting (contras did this in Nicaragua - not that they were freedom fighters in any conceivable sense of the phrase). If you can blow up a prime minister, why not an MP? If you can blow up an army base, why not shoot policemen? I do think the era of roving bands of freedom fighters is over in the North. With the overwhelming force of the state against them, what can they do apart from bomb civilians? Unless you're confident you can gather mass support, you're fucked anyway.
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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 7, 2010 11:53:50 GMT
What can I say? Human society and social interactions are messy and complicated, black-and-white judgments and one size fits all philosophies rarely account well for the true intricacies of the situations you meet. Pre-judgment is often impossible.
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Revenant
Ally
Alan Corvus - Axes High
? Je Reviendrai ?
Posts: 49
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Post by Revenant on Sept 7, 2010 14:50:57 GMT
P.S. Still listening. May be in my head for weeks now.
If you give a man a fish you've fed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you've fed him for his life. “Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.” —Terry Pratchett ;D
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Post by Gabby on Sept 7, 2010 18:32:51 GMT
What can I say? Human society and social interactions are messy and complicated, black-and-white judgments and one size fits all philosophies rarely account well for the true intricacies of the situations you meet. Pre-judgment is often impossible. Ah, no debate there. Seems dealing in meaningless old platitudes is less useful than it seems, eh Duke-y? ;D
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Post by Officer S on Sept 7, 2010 22:20:08 GMT
Officer S seems to come out of it he stands up and strolls towards Brad, and the others
What is stopping me from pulling out my pistol and shooting you in the head right now... Any of you actually? What is stopping me from giving the order for these officers to kill you right now?
I'll tell you, my sense of right versus wrong. I feel you are wrong in your ways, perhaps even ignorant in the ways of life itself. But I'm not going to give the order to have you all shot because I think your ways are wrong. I think you guys are scared, scared that if left unchecked the masses would indeed rise up and stand up to you and your leaders. It is only a matter of time before your own ignorance will be your un-doing.
"Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee."
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Post by ohfrigg on Sept 8, 2010 14:32:34 GMT
well that could be it or you could just feel the social pressure not to. it's a taboo, and you'd probably be punished for it in some way. in a lot of cases these taboos do get ingrained as "right" and "wrong". it's just our particular society has determined what benefits us, what is okay to do in certain situations.
i mean, like, what i think is a particularly good example of this is the taboo that it's not okay to have sex with, say, your sister. when you think about it, if you both were willing and used birth control so no kid would be produced, it really doesn't harm anyone. it's only gross and gives you the heeby-jeebies because it's ingrained in us that it's gross.
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Post by razi on Sept 8, 2010 16:01:41 GMT
The fear of punishment is an exceedingly strong motivator not to perform socially-immoral acts. "Law-abiding" is not the same as "moral righteousness", and if you would like an example of this, look at any riot or natural disaster* and how quickly the looting starts. Also, look at how often people answer 'yes' to the question 'if you could do (some immoral act) without getting caught, would you?' I don't remember the exact number for that question, but the positive answer percentage is usually in the high 70s, at least. You as an example of moral (or intellectual) correctness are not the representative humanity. In essence, your sample size is too small and thus your results are incorrect. *Hurricane Katrina, the Oakland riots, the LA riots, the Jamaican earthquake, etc. Civilization is only three meals away from disaster. this one's for you, revanent:
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Post by greenbay11 on Sept 9, 2010 5:55:05 GMT
well that could be it or you could just feel the social pressure not to. it's a taboo, and you'd probably be punished for it in some way. in a lot of cases these taboos do get ingrained as "right" and "wrong". it's just our particular society has determined what benefits us, what is okay to do in certain situations. i mean, like, what i think is a particularly good example of this is the taboo that it's not okay to have sex with, say, your sister. when you think about it, if you both were willing and used birth control so no kid would be produced, it really doesn't harm anyone. it's only gross and gives you the heeby-jeebies because it's ingrained in us that it's gross. lol that made my night better . But in all seriousness. You didn't answer my question a page or 2 ago . Also +1 for making me laugh frig
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Post by razi on Sept 9, 2010 21:16:21 GMT
lol that made my night better . But in all seriousness. You didn't answer my question a page or 2 ago There's a bet going on to see whom can avoid answering your questions the longest. Just so you know.
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Post by greenbay11 on Sept 9, 2010 21:25:09 GMT
lol that made my night better . But in all seriousness. You didn't answer my question a page or 2 ago There's a bet going on to see whom can avoid answering your questions the longest. Just so you know. awww why ?
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Post by Dr Sy N Tist on Sept 11, 2010 9:26:01 GMT
There's a bet going on to see whom can avoid answering your questions the longest. Just so you know. awww why ? That's called a "joke." Either that, or I just lost the bet.
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sam69
MIA
I am Jack's smirking revenge.
Posts: 2,908
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Post by sam69 on Sept 11, 2010 16:08:08 GMT
Fuck. You made me lose The Game Sy!
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Post by greenbay11 on Sept 11, 2010 20:54:56 GMT
Fuck. You made me lose The Game Sy! I'm confused
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