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Post by Gabby on Sept 2, 2010 10:37:25 GMT
Enjoy your libraries. No-one ever changed the world by reading. A man called Karl Marx once wrote, "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." Of course, you wouldn't know that, because you have never read any of his writings, have you? That is relevant.... how? I thought your rule was to kill them?
As the board's resident anarchist, I'm going to have to point out that you're going to have a very hard time convincing me to hold Gabe's hand. Strengthening the state is not a good way to destroy it. Can the two of you compromise on anarchist communism, perhaps? [/quote] I already have. He's Australian, he's a bit difficult.
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Post by arthurbirling on Sept 2, 2010 10:40:52 GMT
why let a wolf amongst the lambs
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Post by greenbay11 on Sept 2, 2010 16:02:12 GMT
Can't we just agree that everyone kills for the "right" reasons, and instead of PK us you could Revive a zombie then kill it and educate it on why you went through the whole procedure when you could have just killed it then. No need to show it where it made faults because we all make mistakes and just kill?
I mean no offense but If i get pk'ed its because i ap'ed out doing something useful and i couldn't get somewhere safe. I died for a good reason, why do you need to explain to me why i shouldn't sleep somewhere when it was really just my only choice can't you just kill me?
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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 2, 2010 16:16:28 GMT
I think there must be something wrong with the link to your publications. I find only a collection of wiki pages which are essentially didactic rather than scholarly and display no evidence of internal diversity of thought and opinion.
As you say the mask and the number are a device intended to suggest both homogeneity and, frankly, a lack of the humanity you claim you seek to encourage. The Philosophe wiki pages do little to dispell this impression.
Umm, I was also of the impression that you, Duke D'Oeuvre were a representative of Lord Curton's Gentlemen's Hunting Club whose philosophy, such as I understand it, is that since your ancestors had might you have the right to kill whomsoever you choose. That is a rather different organisation and a position I merely deplore but see no point discussing. You make no claim to serve anything except the pursuit of your own pleasure.
As the person here who is likely to get killed for being too plebian (Duke D'Oeuvre) or too ignorant (Brad Dahlia) and who is frankly unlikely to ever kill either of you back, I find it kind of ironic that I'm the one who is being accused of being unnecessarily judgmental.
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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 2, 2010 16:28:04 GMT
Brad it would seem I have misunderstood the nature of the education and intellect you seek to uphold. It seems that you seek merely to impose your own view of the appropriate tactical response to the zombie situation on the population and will, in fact, happily kill someone meat-shielding a TRP or taking an odds based gamble in resting there for an hour or two on the assumption that they have no good reason to be where they are.
I was under the impression that the Philosophe Knights were attempting to kind of short-circuit Maslow's hierarchy of needs - an attempt to kick-start self-actualisation by threatening safety and physiological needs. I was interested in that. If this is simply a game of "You are fighting zombies wrong" then that is kind of dull.
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Post by Officer S on Sept 2, 2010 17:17:03 GMT
Our way of life? Good sir, our way of life is needed for civilization to flurish. We need laws we need order. We as police officers do enforce the laws that were set for good reason. Murder is muder, when you kill someone out of cold blood for the purpose of education, or any reason it is a type of murder. First second or third degree. I still feel there is a sense of right versus wrong. That's why we organize survivors, we teach them how to fight, how to reload their ammo when it runs short. How to live off the land so to speak.
If you give a man a fish you've fed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you've fed him for his life.
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Post by Surfcop on Sept 2, 2010 17:23:55 GMT
I'll stop being rude. I have a bit of a disorder myself (definition #4). Honestly, I am interested in knowing how members of the Philosophe Knights select their targets. Do you go by survivor's profiles as you make your way through the city? Do you select a group based on their wiki pages / forum discussions? Do spelling and grammar not factor into your decisions, and if not, then what? This thread was started by The Elbow after he had been killed by Brad in West Becktown. I didn't see a screenshot of that incident. Did Brad explain why The Elbow was deemed ignorant enough to warrant murder before the deed was done, or how to avoid said punishment again in the future? EDIT: typo
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Post by arthurbirling on Sept 2, 2010 18:11:02 GMT
Surfcop I find your comments hilarious +1
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Post by Dr Sy N Tist on Sept 3, 2010 2:15:07 GMT
....Academic Throwdown.... My, I have missed you Purplecat. I nearly replied to this thread last night, having dealt with Brad and Duke quite a few times in the past with my FoD alt, but having watched Purplecat do it far better than I would have, I'm glad I didn't.
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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 3, 2010 7:55:06 GMT
....Academic Throwdown.... My, I have missed you Purplecat. I nearly replied to this thread last night, having dealt with Brad and Duke quite a few times in the past with my FoD alt, but having watched Purplecat do it far better than I would have, I'm glad I didn't. Well, to be fair, I'm arguing a little one-sidedly here. For instance I'm presenting Maslow's hierarchy of needs as universally accepted, which it is not. Mind you one of the criticisms of it is that it is essentially an individualistic viewpoint rather than a collectivist one and I think there is probably a fairly interesting individualism vs. society tension at the core of the Philosophe Knights argument which we've not got into yet (I've been kind of looking forward to that). I've also not looked at all into the literature on the efficacy of corporal punishment in schools which seems to follow from the same basic premise that pain assists learning and, while it is currently out of favour as an educational method, I assume it still has its supporters. I'm also arguing in the style used by modern western science rather than in the style of the ancient philosophers which the knights seem to prefer. Essentially I am more interested in evidence and raw ideas than I am in the formulation of bon mots or the deployment of the bon mots of others. I have relatively little interest in debate pursued by the swapping of quotations from literary and philosophical figures of old. I suspect I am influenced in that by a tutor who always demanded I explain any quotation I put in an essay since he had a suspicion that I resorted to quotation when I didn't actually properly understand the content of an argument. He was often correct in that. If I were being catty I would say I am more interested in the substance than the style. If I were being really catty I would call the Philosophe Knights pseudo-intellectual snobs. However I suspect this is more to do with the science vs. humanities divide and I'm bringing my prejudices as a practicing scientist to bear in an argument with a group whose background is strongly rooted in the humanities (although that takes me back to my argument about the systemic bias inherent in their recruitment process). I'm also being a little unfair in characterising their approach as "You are doing zombies wrong" since the constraints of the game limit their ability to genuinely pursue a program of education by violence, although even taking that into account their policy seems to be one of assuming ignorance by default which I think you can argue against even taking into account the constraints of the game (I find it ironic, to be honest, that someone suffering from dysgraphia should be pursuing a program which shares the same basic philosophy as that held by Victorian schoolmasters who caned their students for mis-spelling and also shares their attitude that, by default, it is wilfullness that causes such errors and punishment should be meted out without any further consideration of or investigation into causes or reasons). I think there is also an interesting discussion to be had on the comparative utility of spending AP in killing "useless" survivors in order to provide an example and actually using that AP in something of direct benefit such as barricading. I sort of meant to have that argument with the Spartans as well, but I had too much on my plate at the time to start it. And lastly, I vastly prefer an antagonist with an interesting background and rationale that I can sink my teeth into in this kind of way than most of the PKers we encounter. "Pure evil because..." is terrifically uninteresting. I'm treating this as a roleplaying opportunity and I hope that everyone understands that OOC I recognise the Philosophe Knights and the Hunting Club have adopted an extreme position for RP purposes and that I do not assume that the people behind these characters actually espouse these beliefs. I also recognise that beliefs adopted for RP purposes are harder to defend consistently in a debate than those that are genuinely and passionately held. But I really do appreciate the fact that these groups are doing something more interesting with their PK rationale than, for instance, the Dead and I wouldn't want this discussion to be viewed as opposition to groups like this existing in game (quite the opposite in fact). It's a little unfortunate that I'm mostly drawing on my OOC expertise in this discussion but I think you'd have to agree that the Purple Cat character herself has neither the educational background nor experience to marshal a debate of this kind.
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Post by Dr Sy N Tist on Sept 3, 2010 9:53:44 GMT
I always rather liked The Dead. They at least accepted their purpose, to troll, and went at it with the full vigour I've grown to expect from SA goons. Although I don't respect their methods (namely zerging), I respect the whole-hearted commitment to the task which leads them to such choices.
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Post by Gabby on Sept 3, 2010 10:37:14 GMT
If you give a man a fish you've fed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you've fed him for his life. Until some fat-arse corporation buys his lake. Cat, I'm with Sy here, that was a bitch-slap of a post (in the best way possible) - but plebian and ignorant? Really?
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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 3, 2010 11:11:03 GMT
but plebian and ignorant? Really? Well as far as I can tell my family haven't been members of the nobility since 1576 when they seem to have opted for running pubs instead and, you know, I haven't read Voltaire.
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Post by Gabby on Sept 3, 2010 16:56:30 GMT
but plebian and ignorant? Really? Well as far as I can tell my family haven't been members of the nobility since 1576 when they seem to have opted for running pubs instead and, you know, I haven't read Voltaire. Dahling, nobility is so last century. It's all about reading the Guardian and recycling these days.
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commanderrex
Trainee
Imperial guards ; there is no glory in a pointless defeat,retreat and regroep! Don't Lose HOPE!
Posts: 40
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Post by commanderrex on Sept 3, 2010 17:10:08 GMT
Sorry to interrupt. But is this the Catina?
O and I'm sorry to say I accidentally heard over a conversation and I need to say that I'm 16 years old and love to read so ... First thing in Malton I'm going to do .. Is find my self a library
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Post by Space Tyrant on Sept 3, 2010 18:20:22 GMT
The DHPD -- stop by for coffee and donuts, stay for the dissertation.
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Revenant
Ally
Alan Corvus - Axes High
? Je Reviendrai ?
Posts: 49
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Post by Revenant on Sept 4, 2010 1:04:43 GMT
That is relevant.... how? Your quote tags are somewhat malformed. I was going to wait until you had had the opportunity to fix them, but not forever… Allow me to make my point more succinctly. Agree or disagree? I already have. He's Australian, he's a bit difficult. I, also. @ Purple Cat: Thank you for the recognition! This discussion has certainly demonstrated that I cannot in good faith consider the DHPD Ignorant as a group, even were I so inclined; but then, that was never really the issue, was it? RE: The Knights page: And by their very nature do you not see the hand of committee design, of compromise? With its myriad statements, sub-statements, clarifications and caveats, it is obviously (to my eyes, at least) a group effort. RE: LCGHC vs. Knights: I am a man of many hats. The Club is my own group; we are exclusive, but not possessive. Many of our members also wear multiple hats. I am afraid that I tend to speak for myself, and that my positions on many matters are often considered heterodox if not outright heretical. Unless I say otherwise, do not take what I say to be Knights policy. It is de facto Hunting Club policy, but I do not require my members to conform to my own beliefs on everything and they are always welcome to challenge me if they see fit. On a personal note (the player, not the character – since you started it… ) – my own background is also in the "hard" sciences, which I suspect is why I find this type of subject fascinating. After all, everything is ultimately applied philosophy; to paraphrase, "Biology is applied chemistry, which is applied physics, which is applied mathematics, which is applied philosophy." (Let us not discuss English majors. ) As the person here who is likely to get killed for being too plebian (Duke D'Oeuvre) or too ignorant (Brad Dahlia) and who is frankly unlikely to ever kill either of you back, I find it kind of ironic that I'm the one who is being accused of being unnecessarily judgmental. I have some vague recollection of assisting in a kill on you. Rest assured that it was because as then-leader of DHPD you were a valuable trophy. (Also, a target of opportunity, if I recall aright.) @ Dr Sy N Tist: I remember you. Our relations were always amicable, as far as I recall. How have you been?
Also, as far as The Dead zerging: their internal policing of this was rather vigourous, at least while they were big and from what several observers have demonstrated. You may disagree with their formation of several hordes under the moniker "The Dead" and encouraging forum members to create zombies for each, but that could only constitute alt abuse rather than zerging per se unless the alts are employed in close proximity, and is an entirely different discussion. Forgive the pedanticness, but in my capacity as an Inquisitor I tend to find the term zerging used improperly extremely frequently and strive to correct it wherever I may.
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Post by arthurbirling on Sept 4, 2010 1:28:06 GMT
australia reminds me of the starwars cantina
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Revenant
Ally
Alan Corvus - Axes High
? Je Reviendrai ?
Posts: 49
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Post by Revenant on Sept 4, 2010 1:46:51 GMT
That's a good thing, right?
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Post by arthurbirling on Sept 4, 2010 1:58:45 GMT
a den of scum and villiany?
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Post by Dr Sy N Tist on Sept 4, 2010 4:16:58 GMT
@ Dr Sy N Tist: I remember you. Our relations were always amicable, as far as I recall. How have you been? I remember agreeing to disagree quite often, perhaps a difference in viewpoints, but yes, I guess you could call it an amicable relationship. I've been quiet, haven't played the game in around 9 months or so. Currently stalking the DHPD forums, but that's about it.
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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 4, 2010 11:00:59 GMT
Well as far as I can tell my family haven't been members of the nobility since 1576 when they seem to have opted for running pubs instead and, you know, I haven't read Voltaire. Dahling, nobility is so last century. It's all about reading the Guardian and recycling these days. That's the chattering classes Gabby - upper middle left-wing intelligentsia. Completely different social strata - the upper classes read the Times and the Telegraph!
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Post by Purple Cat on Sept 4, 2010 17:05:14 GMT
RE: The Knights page: And by their very nature do you not see the hand of committee design, of compromise? With its myriad statements, sub-statements, clarifications and caveats, it is obviously (to my eyes, at least) a group effort. You see, to me, it looks more like a socratic dialogue (I've always considered most of the participants there to be essentially fictitious characters whose purpose is to advance straw men* for the sage to knock down), obviously the form is different but there is no questioning of the assumption that corporal punishment is an effective pedagogic practice, let alone any discussion of its comparative effectiveness with other approaches (I suppose there is the bald statement that words are often ineffective but that is entirely unsubstantiated). There is also no consideration of the effect of environment on learning and the ways that environment in Malton could be improved, nor any examination of the way that the Philosophe Knights identified, as they are, as a PKing group, might in fact bring the name of learning into disrepute. You know, I'm not sure I'd characterise what happens when a discipline moves out of philosophy as it becoming "applied", nor am I sure that I'd accept the statement that physics is applied mathematics, its basic mode of enquiry owes far more to scientific method than much of mathematics does. However it is certainly the case that philosophy is essentially the discipline of asking questions and examining assumptions and sub-disciplines tend to move out of it as they acquire concrete systems of inquiry and investigation that yield the prospect of answers. I say this as someone who's tangled with epistemology and the philosophy of mathematics, it must be said I know nothing about political philosophy (although Gabby keeps urging me to read Voltaire, Marx and Che Guevara) or the study of ethics. To be honest my memory is equally vague. I know you were around in the DMZ at one point but I don't recall whether you killed me or not. Unsurprisingly, I got PK'd a lot when I was chief (though I think Delta squad still manage to get killed more often than that), it's dropped down noticeably since, almost enough to make a girl feel unloved *for the purposes of exaggeration anyway. But it's not a real conversation but a carefully structured teaching opportunity to make specific points.
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Post by Surfcop on Sept 4, 2010 19:42:40 GMT
I suppose the only way my questions will be answered is if I quote some old dead dudes. So here goes.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut
Do the Philosophe Knights resent the ignorant of Malton because their higher educations they worked for don't necessarily allow them to lead better lives here?
Here's a piece of advice for you:
Wear your learning like your watch, in a private pocket, and do not pull it out and strike it merely to show that you have one. If you are asked what time it is, tell it, but do not proclaim it hourly and unasked, like the watchman. -Earl of Chesterfield
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Post by Gabby on Sept 4, 2010 21:06:21 GMT
Dahling, nobility is so last century. It's all about reading the Guardian and recycling these days. That's the chattering classes Gabby - upper middle left-wing intelligentsia. Completely different social strata - the upper classes read the Times and the Telegraph! While voting Tory, presumably. *spits* When you get a moment, you should have a butchers at Candide. I'm not sure how well translated it is, mind, but it's a fun little thing, and about a 100-odd pages. Can't say you'll come out of it very enlightened, mind. Dude was on crack, clearly. I would be remiss in recommending Marx, as my reading amounts to the Manifesto and about thirty pages of Capital. ~~~~ And my quote-tags are beautiful. (there's no problem there, honestly. I'm quoting you quoting me.) Agreed on that quote. Not much use killing doodz then, is it?
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